Episode 39 · 27:21
Parenting advice from non-parents
Dan and Tom offer parenting opinions with the important disclaimer that neither is a parent. That distance lets them examine reward, motivation, praise and the gap between a tidy principle and the complicated reality of raising a person.
The useful lesson travels beyond parenting: incentives shape behaviour, but specific attention and consistent example shape identity.
The useful bits
What to take with you
- A reward can produce compliance without building the value behind the behaviour.
- Specific praise helps someone understand what they did well and why it mattered.
- Principles need room for context; people are not systems with one reliable input.
- The behaviour you model is usually more persuasive than the standard you announce.
Watch the conversation
The original episode.
Full conversation
Transcript
Transcript generated from YouTube captions. Dan/Tom speaker attribution is AI-assisted and may occasionally be incorrect.
[Music] don't be a a stop don't be a [Music] stop and welcome to don't be a door stop we've actually been running for one year even though we've not done 365 um episodes we've been running for one year because I got a notification that we've been uh going for a year which is pretty good and and um yeah I think it's um I'm impressed with our perseverance of keeping it going even though sometimes we have a few um missing weeks as it were but um yeah.
The fact that it's content creation for a year so we've been creating content for the last year in spikes and troths spikes and troths but I'm impressed so well done to us yeah that's it whatever so topics we're talking about today um I was at a wedding party yesterday and I was chatting to a guy that homeschools his kids um his wife is a teacher so his wife um homeschools them and the benefits of homeschooling then we wented to speak about um and the.
Benefits are are that they're very confident and they've got the character back because generally generally in life you'll go from a stage of wanting to fit in and being like everybody else to wanting to be individual now in the school period of time you predominantly want to be like everybody else um and sometimes School makes you to be like everybody else as well so that can Crush people's characters especially the uniqueness of a child's character so in pulling a kid out of school sometimes.
You can help them craft it and then they're more self assured they're more like you know they have better self belief they're a bit more confident they're talk like more talkative so it kind of develops them much much further and then you can put them back into school a late stage um but the benefits of the full attention um they also do collaborate with other people that are homeschooling but the attention that you get rather than being one of 30 or I I.
Don't even know like I think we had 40 kids in that class at one point um to to be much much better and then I went on to ask him about um like generally speaking Kim and I speak a lot about kids um in preparation for that happening so we're well prepared one aspect that I've always kind of like struggled with initially is what happens when your kid turns around and be like I hate your dad now it's unlikely that.
That will happen but it happens to be an irrational fear of mine so like reverse engineering that like why is that the case um and the reality of like one I can't control the children um our children so they'll think whatever they want to think but it's kind of coming down to the whole like intention versus impact so I'll have good intention as a father um do something make a decision or so forth but then the impact is.
Something that I can't control and if the impact is positive or negative it is what it is right but like how do I manage that and work around it um and the effects of that so yeah I found that very very interesting but what's your take on it and then I'll tell you what he said after as well I was going to ask about followup questions um yeah I find it very interesting I think the difficulty a lot of people find in doing.
Homeschooling is a I guess having the quality of teaching having the confidence of doing it but let's say you do have that quality in teaching kids or learning along the way it's the fear that they'll lose out on that social aspect because I have had discussions with different with parents and um my wife about could we homeschool if that would help or benefit the child and what does that look like yeah and naturally the first conversation goes towards what does our.
Social life look like um but actually it doesn't necessarily mean you're the most social person in the world going to a school because I used to be quite shy and stuff but actually where the socializing worked for me was more in the hockey club of an evening so actually you just counteract it with um socializing in your I guess more in your strength than your weakness um because that's what I always found that trying to socialize in school was difficult.
Because you basically in fight or flight mode most of the time if you're dyslexic and struggling in class so you're only socializing during lunchtime and stuff anyway about sports or football or whatever um so yeah it is it is a very interesting topic and I guess I've noticed in um Wales I think they've done I'm not sure about in England how now each school has a slightly different syllabus so they've given the I guess keys of authority to the schools that.
They should be able to come up with what they feel like is useful for the kids which sounds good in the sense that it be very localized but half me is like it must be quite hard then going to University and having a pool of people that have all done slightly different things it' been quite intriguing on how that might affect people let's say after this new re that I think changed last year or the year before um like once you've gone.
Through a year 7 to 12 and then gone to UNI what would the impact look like um but equally I don't know it might be a to integrate with more the local um maybe businesses or or um Charities and stuff like that that might be really interesting because it's not on the syllabus for everyone to work with a market in Flint for example um but you might be able to add that of learning about the the money behind it or um or.
Other stuff like or languages of because the the local Farm needs to speak while Shan English to reach all its customers or whatever to make it a lot more engaging but yeah it's very interesting thoughts you want like a package of your kids need to be spending time with adults to understand those Dynamics and not to be scared of adults your kids also need to be spending time with other kids to know how to like you know make.
Friends and socialize so how do you g gather that those like environments and create those environments in the right space and I think it is about collaboration and similar with like how do you interact with adults well go out and do tasks right so you go to the shop to buy something or you jump on the bus and you get the child to like ask for the bus ticket or whatever it is um so I thought that yeah I think it's really.
Really interesting and I wonder if more like if there's more like um like small groups of people doing it then you club together right and then you have the socializing factor of like home school could be like six kids right and you're doing variation of things and then you're passing it to another parent or SL teer or tutor or whatever or you know go swimming all together or doing a sports activity all together or go and watch a film all together like an.
Educational film or go to a museum together so it's really fascinating but so was this guy's kid in school and he pulled him out or straight pulled him out so he has yeah has two two kids basically the first kid went to school and a few weeks into school was like a shell of themselves so decided to pull them out and then within a few weeks had returned to their self so I think sometimes there can be the the impact of.
Um like again the whole suppression of character and who you are and stuff kind of happens a little bit in school right um especially because there is clashing characters of other kids so it might be that your character isn't the loudest character anymore or whatever it is so yeah you now and then therefore the second child came along and they decided to put the second child straight into homeschooling um which is cool so I I think there's a benefit to it because.
You can also be super practical in the way that you teach things a bit more like real life as it were I remember one guy that we used to have um an agency we worked at he was the accountant but he was an ex maath teacher he was like he would teach kids rather than teaching kids like Pythagoras he would teach kids like cool so we' bought this water warde from Ikea we need to get it through the.
Door but we need to figure out is the Wardrobe going to fit through the door therefore let's use Pythagoras to figure out if this Ikea wardrobe is going to fit through the door it's like of course everybody at some point in their life is going to you know build an Ikea um thing right or like move a wardrobe or something so being the much more practical side to it yeah yeah that makes sense oh that's interesting and then was there any um.
Downfalls of working from home how did they Journey that out I guess did one of them have to quit their job or were they working from home anyway I I I think both of them work from home but I think the challenge is is probably um the intensity of homeschooling is you're always on and also you're the parent outside of those hours like outside of the stereotypical school hours as well so it can be very fullon for one or or.
Or the parents right or the one person that's doing the tutoring so I think in having the a mix of other people involved in another Community then you can like remove some of the like the in intensity intensity of the burden yeah back to the um like again impact sorry intentions versus impact he was like I think the key thing it doesn't matter about the decision it's the followup is more than anything so if you do the right decision great if you.
Do the wrong decision cool but like how are you going to tell it's like the it's the followup of like so what did you think so firstly it's like can you include them in the decision and I think like sometimes adults think we need to be adults therefore we will make a decision on behalf of our kids and then play out for example like moving areas or whatever so if you're able to include the kids you respect them and give them.
Like a sense of Authority or or like respecting their um like Essence right like them as people right them as individuals that you've kind of like crafted together um and likelihood is that they will have good ideas and they'll have different ideas which are some things you won't have thought about and it might be that they don't want to move because they much prefer it here or whatever so in including them in the decision then secondary to that um which including.
Them in decision does probably help with lowering the negative impact then once you have made a decision if you're going to make it without them asking them so we've decided this say what do you think right and including them in in the followup then you're able to gauge whether or not it's positive for them or negative for them you can kind of like speak um through things with them and then going back to my irrational fear which I think I've slowly gotten rid of.
Um which is basically the whole ah they're going to hate you well at least if you're able to discuss it and also remove your ego from the whole process and hopefully at the end your kids aren't going to say I hate you they'll like oh I disagree with you or or I don't like this so I think if you have a baseline of I don't want my kids to fear me I want them to be okay challenging me.
But respectfully in the same way that I would challenge somebody else respectfully then that's a good Baseline and we're all included in a decision- making process so we can have the best outcome and then if need be like and when appropriate like following up then that means you're not going to have like the hardcore edges of the thing that is very easy to be a bad parent it's very hard to be a good parent because it requires these extra interventions extra.
Conversations and stuff you know to make sure the ship is steady as you're journeying as a unit of like family members so yeah very very interesting very encouraging to speak positively about these things and and how to go about it with positive impact rather than generally speaking you know you know it's all about oh like you're always tired all the time or or oh you can't do these things they're either dream destroyers or dream delayers you know all these like more so negative.
Narratives it's called to be like oh yeah that makes sense and these are positive conversations you can have um around bringing up kids that's interesting I was listening to a podcast recently I'm trying to search it quickly to see if I can find it um but I don't think I can in the short amount of time and it's basically talking about regulating as a family unit yeah um and basically saying normally more often they not um that kids that would kick off is because they.
Might not be listened to so if it is like a I hate you um element it's that element of high emotion to get your attention creating an emotionally healthy family developing emotional resilience in your family overcoming Anxiety in your family and build building a thriving family and it's really interesting talking about how a lot of the time it is um the parents bringing the peace to the household that will settle everyone but then also I guess helping the kids.
Have words to communicate what they're feeling what they're um thinking because a lot of the time I guess it is that I hate you it's an identity element of the kid not liking you but I guess it's that it feels like the power has been pulled away from you that that's the final decision rather than no I hate that decision cool why did you hate that decision let's discuss it and be more I guess open relationships rather than.
Closed relationships of um shutting that down of going okay that that's that final thought or final opinion um of me rather than it's like a building blocks to be like oh that's interesting that they really hated it do they actually hate me or is it just having a bad day and it's a reflection of their bad day that they don't know how to communicate it so they're just really annoyed or they might be just picking up my stress.
Because we're moving house and they've not had input so they just have to have an allowed emotion to be heard at all but I thought it was a very um very fascinating podcast because it was basically saying how it was going through this couple's lifestyle and how basically if they weren't regulated as a couple it's as if everything goes wrong like the kids will be a bit like Agy with them like the pets might be playing up a little bit more um I don't know how.
You receive emails or letters in the door or interacting with your community everything just feels a little bit more on edge rather than if the couple's settled it's as if the the household has like this um inner piece that then can deal with whatever comes up with it of if the house goes wrong it's more of a a problem solving or let's have a laugh and joke around it rather than oh it's another thing it's another weight on my.
Shoulders that's frustrating me because there's this kid that's crying there's this that's happening the dogs pooing indoors or whatever it is um and it sort of felt like it was the ABS and flows of if they weren't regulated a lot of the time the whole household wouldn't because they would be setting the the temperature I guess it's similar to the workplace like if you've got a manager that's um super intense it makes everyone feel like they are walking on X.
Shells and it is that recognizing if you are in a place of of I guess power if you know it or not from a place of Authority I guess from a parents to managers to directors to owners sometimes people don't realize that you might be picking up on their day-to-day emotion that maybe they're going through a breakup at the moment but you don't know that because sometimes some people don't want to open about that um but there is this tension that people can.
Sense and feel is as if you're um radiating whatever you aren't talking about and stuff so it is very fascinating that I guess is creating those safe zones and spaces that kids C can interact with you um and understand that you might be in the wrong if you're angry and did something bad it wasn't because you're angry at them it was something else triggered you to be angry and then you yelled at them and it's holding I guess that Authority and.
Responsibility um that it's not always just the kid's fault for being annoying because actually the kid is learning regulation it's learning communication is learning um attachment or from you while if you're teaching it wrong um or teaching it to be short-tempered or whatever you can't really blame it because it's just picking up what you're doing to some extent they typically say that your kids are like mirrors um of of your characteristics initially so if you're more Snappy and angry then they kind of.
Pick it up as that's the norm so it is yeah setting the tone setting the culture setting the emotional atmosphere or the energy atmosphere of like positivity and things I also think it's fascinating how um like like I said my thing is irrational because I know like one I've never done that to our parents right so I know it's irrational but it's kind of like the it's also the if it had happened for example um then I would try.
And make sure to like not do it again and create an different environment you know so it's always about being aware so if you don't work through stuff as a parent or pre parenting you end up like replaying the same same mistakes so again we always talk about like self-awareness probably is the most underrated characteristic or thing to like exhibit of like being super self-aware that you're creating or affecting an atmosphere and also creating a like a something to be.
Replicated if it is replicated by kids so yeah the whole like being like super super like humble slash no ego stuff creating the right energy also when you saying about the being able to communicate or not being able to communicate I think typically we take notice of loud um reactions when sometimes we should also take notice of quiet reactions and check in with kids that aren't Shou as such like the kids that are quiet or like have it all.
Together Vibes because it might be that there is also something there so it's like even though like sometimes like right everybody's quiet everybody's like doing the thing cool I get to relax it's like even in those moments it's just checking in to make sure even the quiet kids and the kids that are got together like making sure that they're okay um because it might be that they also don't have the communication but they are good like you know self sothers and they plot.
On but actually they do want ultimately the key thing which is basically to be understood so as a parent your ultimate goal is to help your kids feel understood yeah and be super self-aware in the conducting of that experiment not experiment but like Venture Adventure as it were like yeah yeah I thought a couple of things did pop up but I've instantly forgotten all of them um and I think sometimes it's good to I guess help and this is um we're talking about.
Parenting as Pros with no kids yeah but from the podcast interesting what we're pre parenting probe marriage tips or whatever um parents tips camera um yeah and it's it's interesting because basically what they were talking about is um different zones of Regulation so you'd have like the Red Zone with which is like high uh it's like anger so high energy and unregulated then you got low energy and not regulated which is like sadness and then you got high energy regulated.
Which is like joy and then low which is like calm so what they do is talk about these colors of yellow green blue and red and they were like telling their kids I'm in the red zone now how should I get out of it what do we tell you to do and a lot of the time the kids are like oh you tell us to walk away for two minutes and do 10 breaths and that type of thing so it's not only reiter ating.
It to the kids but it's getting them to input into you so you're working as sort of a family unit not that they're training you and being the parent it's just a clever reminder to be like oh I didn't realize that Mommy and Daddy are in Red Zone now actually when I'm in Red Zone I know what that feels like so actually they do need two breaths um so I'm going to walk away from the situation and let.
Them deal with the situation so when I come back they might listen to my idea that I want to go to the park or whatever and it's bringing that very complex regulation and feelings and that down to just basic colors and times and more tangible elements even the responsibility of that I think the added thing of like cool mom and dad are in red zone is that my fault now kids I assume that kids have a natural default.
To intro like introspectively think was that me kind of thing was that my fault and then there there will be some like um something inside of you to be like no it wasn't don't worry about it it's cool or something that says it could be couldn't it and then you go down the rabbit hole now the likelihood of like an instinctive like intuition saying no it wasn't you I think the proportion of that being The Voice versus the.
Proportion of like oh it could be couldn't it like maybe they are I think that one happens to be louder I would assume so like an 8020 so likelihood is if you don't tell your kids that it's not your fault that I'm not upset it might be that they pick up something in the emotional energy Vibes and might blame themselves and stuff you know sometimes we feel responsible for our parents' happiness like I I don't think I've ever felt that thankfully but I.
Understand people that is a thing that's a real thing where you'll feel responsible for whether or not your parent is happy or sad therefore you'll perform to get your parent happy and then when they're not happy you think oh that's a detrimental thing of like it's because I'm not good enough and the and the kind of the slippery slope that that starts I remember my point now left me again my point is you just got to say the first my point is and then I saw.
Butt fly it's like oh butt fly and I was like I for that was my my point is just gone um what were you talking about you're talking about regulation responsibility of I am in the Red Zone but it's not my child's fault and explaining that rather than the child picking up internally oh it could be my fault couldn't it like yeah it is my fault it was something from the last one but yeah I think it is that interesting.
Of of I guess learning who's the ownership I think that is massively helpful of going actually it's not your fault or sometimes it is your fault but I still need that little bit of rest so then we can talk about it when we're both in a bit more of a a chilled Zone um I guess it's not doing just the blame game of yeah it's always always your fault every time you ask me you're being annoying or needy or what CU at the end.
Of the day if you don't teach your kids of oh can you come to me when I come in from work give me five minutes and then come to me if they don't know those sort of small elements of boundaries and it's not saying don't speak to me all evening because that's impossible but just adding small boundaries in so you can have a breather or you just sit in the car if they don't know how to react to that for 10.
Minutes then of course they're just going to ask you because they're just excited to see you um it's like a dog running to you straight at the door it's like they just want to be around you and be part of your life um so it is difficult sort of adding those little things in just to keep yourself insane and not um I guess snap at them yeah this is all good preparation for the um potential of or the.
Inevitability of being parents at some point and I think it's funny isn't it because you probably don't hear many single people sorry not single many non-parents speaking about this stuff but I want to speak about this stuff more and I like speaking about it so you can be well prepared like you want to be prepared before coming into thing of course you can never be 100% prepared new things get thrown at you but um like anything like it's natural to want to do.
Good at something especially with the impact of another human being so you want to try and do your your best by speaking about it and being open about um the challenges and and the approaches that you will create AKA plan the culture before it happens right there's no point planning for something when it's on your doorstep you want to plan it and think about it way before it happens so then when it does happen you've like got the easy stuff easy.
You've got like the easy stuff out the way so you can spend more time on the harder things and have more um kind of like energy and mental strength on the harder challenges rather than get stuck with the Like the quote unquote like level one easy kind of vibe stuff you want to be like cool if I can just tackle level one and two now outside of the envir then when it comes to it level three will be perceived as easy because I've.
Already done one and two rather than one and two being like straight away on your doorstep as as a first um thing yeah it's very interesting so parenting tips 101 from people with know kids yeah that's how we roll yeah I I think it is a a balance of like if you're going to be a parent at some point then you need to think about it so you'll think about kids when you don't have kids so I think I will allow it yeah.
It's like we're studying for an exam but we've not had the exam yet yeah exactly the lifetime exam of parent yeah studying to be a perfect parent maybe that should be our new season yeah and be like hey my name's Dan and this is Tom we're both non-parents until next time here's another here's to another year of podcasting hopefully so keep hammering those nails oh [Music] stop.